One reason is because I have gone through periods where I questioned Gods goodness because of certain events in my life and in those of others. Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by thatbrian, Feb 9, 2018. Which also prove that God does not fit into our nice, neat packages. If Calvin hadnt written up on it, someone else may well have done subsequently. How dare he write such a long work! If we are acting primarily out of love, this becomes good works and is worthless. As my parents were from Scotland, NIreland.we all related to bring a wee bit different. He started out not sure where he stood. All are welcome to participate. But I do not understand why discussions of sovereignty do not always point to love, to the simple fact that while we do not have enough information yet, on this side of life, we can be confident that love and fairness/justice is and always will be the answer and we will someday understand how it looks, And any idea that causes people existential damage is wrong. I mentioned the concept as one that was coming from a non-Calvinist contingent (but is also the view of Sproul). Id like to comment on one: Accept that Calvinists find peace in trusting that God has orchestrated even the specific tragedies in life. Your next sentence is They do not understand why this brings others great pain.. Until these last five years, Ihad thought it possible for everyone to get along, even attend the same church. It is how Calvinism discusses those underlying ideas that causes existential damage and thus, pain. Roger E. Olson(born 1952) is Professor of Theology,George W. Truett Theological Seminary,Baylor University,Waco, Texas, USA.[1][2]. Paige Patterson 18. I immediately connected with reader Oasis and it left me sobbing. I. Howard Marshall 28. Im not saying you or TWW do that, but I have felt in the past that I was really not allowed to be a Calvinist in some commenters minds. Craigs got it right. God does indeed work in mysterious and wonderful ways. Should the conversation be halted? Where we end, he begins. On the other thread, I commented about the issue of sovereignty and the misunderstanding a lot of people have about the concept of sovereignty. is far removed from anything I, or any other Calvinist I know, believes. And I kind of doubt youre on call to give your Testimony in church; it just doesnt jibe with the Conventional Christianese Testimony. This way of thinking goes against what Calvin said about freewill, the Westminster Confession of Faith says about freewill, and what every Calvinist Ive ever met says about freewill. But what I am hoping is that you, as well as me, can instead understand the objections so well that you can begin to understand why a few quotes from Calvin, along with a few Bible verses, do not answer the deeper questions.. With the Internet, you never know. Demand they defend their ideas. Recently, I had a Calvinist who knowns me say that i was not a Christian by very fact that I write this blog and call out some of the people that he admires. Oy. Yet, somewhere after the third paragraph, this young, rudderless teen stopped reading, glanced over at Star Trek on the television, began to cry, whispered, I believe and crossed that final frontier from unbelief into belief. No offense, Jeff, but a bit upthread you mentioned the concept of God choosing what kinds of evil he allows I find that deeply troubling. Because truth that doesnt work in the grey isnt really truth. I looked into becoming a Calvinist years ago but did not see it in the Scripture, and I tried hard to do so. A person can be a conservative Christian without being Reformed or believing in Calvinism. A stupendously important point, Jeff. Am very sorry to read of your sils diagnosis. I grew up with a no talk policy and then experienced the same restrictions in church later on when I experienced abuse. That is, the non-Calvinist can say whatever he or she wants and the Calvinist just has to take it. This is merely a nice way of saying that God hasnt enlightened you to the truth. Ive lost track of the number of times in blog comments where it has been insisted that it means that we are as bad as we can be. Jeff B. Jeff, whether it was my misperceptions or real perceptions of the doctrine that you hold dear to your heart, someone trying to correct my faulty ideas of Calvinism isnt going to benefit me whatsoever if I am at the emotional/spiritual end of my rope. If you had simply read the Bible, you would know that you are filled with the lies of the devil! Does that make me not a Calvinist? What you believe is irrelevant. That if we are only a little totally depraved we might only get a little condemned by God, and not die? There is some truth in this, but to bring thought control into it turns it into legalism. G. Campbell Morgan 16. A Adam Clarke Adam Harwood Adrian Rogers A W Tozer B Balthasar Hubmaier Ben Witherington III Brian Abasciano C Charles Finney Charles Swindoll Chuck Smith Clark Pinnock C S Lewis Craig Evans Craig Keener D Daniel Steele Daniel Whedon Daniel Whitby Dave Hunt David Allen David Arthur DeSilva David Bentley Hart David Pawson Dwight L Moody E F Would you drink a glass of water with just a little flesh eating bacteria in it? . But I really, truly want to be done with the Paul! Once we start playing the salvation game, the battle becomes nasty. And in their zeal, they often miss obvious signs that are bringing the hurt person even deeper into pain. We really, really need it. You wrote: Jeff [S], whether it was my misperceptions or real perceptions of the doctrine that you hold dear to your heart, someone trying to correct my faulty ideas of Calvinism isnt going to benefit me whatsoever if I am at the emotional/spiritual end of my rope. I dont believe that this is the scenario that Jesus presented to his disciples. He referred to our mutual, former experience as Bible light. I know that it started spontaneously on another thread, but you could have said enough.. And it wouldnt matter to me if what the person said was true or not. German-American theologian and philosopher Paul Tillich is remembered for his work in the field of Christian existentialism and for concepts such as the method of correlation. OK, but if you choose to do evil instead of good, I mean. For this reason, it is often called "God-centered" theology. Its sobering that these are the very things that will be withheld from me in many church settings because doing is reflexively conflated with striving and I need to learn to rest in Daddy/Mummy Gods unconditional love. I guess what Im trying to say is: No one forces any of us to comment; but once we do we are obligated to defend our ideas. I dont think so, but Im pretty sure Spock was a Calvinist. @ Bridget: For a village to be wiped out? Understand that they think we are as illogical as we think they are illogical. Youd be shocked! All the water in the glass was tainted with a bit of black dye, but it was not pure black and saturated with the dye. (LogOut/ Change), You are commenting using your Twitter account. In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian) and the church councils, which means we all accept the most important teachings on Christs Person, His Deity and resurrection, and the teachings on the Trinity. Learning as we go, making mistakes but so what, & learning from them. and can find no basis for a distinction between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism. thurgood marshall school of law apparel Projetos; bubble buster 2048 town Blog; cell defense the plasma membrane answer key step 13 Quem somos; how to make a good elder scrolls: legends deck Contato; I can completely understand why people would want to flee from that garbage- I want to flee from it too. Therefore, I wanted to keep the door open in this discussion. It is the ideas that underlie what Calvinism discusses that are problematic for all humans. I think this post was a great step toward making those folks feel more welcome. God is NOT in control. To insist on it is to cling to an inadequate, incorrect understanding of God, IMO. So this is a goal for myself, as my family is growing up and I am finding a bit more time. God is NOT in control. I just hope and pray that you can see this. This is what Calvinists need to come to terms with. In general, my beliefs do align with RC Sproul. But when I look at the attitude of evangelism presented in scripture, it seems a lot closer to how an Arminian would frame it: a call of hope to those who would repent and turn to God. Dee, thank you for sharing that testimony, and article. Rather, it is a "revival" of sortsa revival of traditional, "old" Calvinism.The movement is sweeping through American evangelical churches of all denominations, attracting young people from Free Church, Episcopal, Independent, Presbyterian, and Baptist churches alike. Dee, thank you so much for asking for prayers for my son-in-law! From the Calvinist point of view, this part of their doctrine is the one that they can use to get along with . @ Julie Anne: I have a very low tolerance for that kind of thing. And thus, we are left with the only real proof that anyone has been given the truth: by agreeing with THEM. He remarked that our theology was illogical. If I did that, I would lose the single greatest tool I have for refining my ideas: discussion, debate, disagreement (three ds). Any benefit we get from His death (i.e., salvation) is great, but if we act like we are too focused on salvation, we are selfish and may not even be saved.. Never once did I hear the word Calvin. He isnt at cross-purposes with Himself, so the question is silly. It is perfectly fine to disagree and to contend for our view of Scripture. The word Gospel which meant so much to me as a new Christian, now seems a bit foreign. If you define Calvinism that way, then I am certainly not a Calvinist, but neither is my church, the PCA, nor even was Calvin himself. Like who can find Gods plan in the most horrible tragedy? Barrett 29. To claim Were doing well so we must be righteous is banal theological incompetence. I might get around to it, at some point. (I mean, Star Trek?). As Ive said, Id prefer not to discuss Calvinism at all. I know theories of the atonement impact stuff, but I just cant get into that whole debate for some reason. There are few things harder to deal with than love that is condescending and devoid of respect. Deny their premises, no matter how altruistic they may sound. I would say its better to address individual issues anyway rather than decided if you can accept the tag. Ive become a more capable musician as a result. @ JeffB: Luther also wrote a great deal about Romans 8 and similar passages. I may be wrong, but I think Enns is a Calvinist. 2) Everything that happens is scripted by God and is good for us. An infant does not want, nor desire steak. How can a bridge be built when the side you are attempting to reach constantly moves its shoreline back and forth in an effort to maintain its monolithic sovereignty as THE only standard of true Christian thought? I cant make it all fit so I go with what I honestly believe and hold loosely to the conclusions. "I want to have a discussion with you. (an extremely brief synopsis:) I dont think that is what TWW is for, and if it were then I wouldnt be here. Mohler says the seminarys current prosperity is a sign of Gods blessing on an institution that rejected liberal trends in society and returned to more conservative social ideas. Shares words of wisdom & advice with you. Im sure there are believers in every venue. The Literature of the Old Testament (1913) [Chapter9], Introduction to the New Testament (1915) [Chapter9], https://laikostheologos.com/introduction-to-soteriology/%5B/footnote%5D, Cultural Dimension of Language andLiterature, Gods Sovereignty in relation to Mans sinfulacts. These accusations are often followed by the fact that although they cant explain away the opposing verses, nonetheless they know their view is the truth. I believe that this misunderstanding puts the m FAS sis on the wrong sil LA ble, on the misunderstood sovereignty as misunderstood, instead of on the love that God, as our creator father (dada), has for us, enough love to experience the indignities of life in the first century in the middle East, to be persecuted, and to die a horribly painful and disgraceful death by torture in public, all for our benefit. To be honest most of the people who Ive bumped into that come across as dogmatic Calvinist are really regurgitating talking points. To me, that question is the greatest challenge to Christianity there is. I would really like to understand this assertion you made. But something has changed in the last number of years. Hes describing man, not God. Energy is really transferred from one thing to another. How do you know that this, in fact, is what the Bible did and is not what God IS like? JeffS we were writing at the same time. Since so many Calvinists believe everything in this life is decreed, it would mean that God decreed you to write/create this blog from before the foundations of the world, so how can they object to you doing so? Can Calvinist and non-Calvinist Baptists work together? A brain tumor has already been successfully removed, which gives us hope for the next surgery (lung, rib, chest area) and the radiation/chemo to follow. It is not love to push Calvin. My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. A very messy prospect, to say the least, and it hadnt worked in centuries past. Earthquakes, tsunamis, category five tornadoes, decrepitude and death are all beyond our pay-grades to decide upon, much less get resolution from. Thanks for the link to the article on Sproul, Jr. As many are probably thinking, what would Sproul, Sr. have to say about this? By 'not real' I mean that the meaning is destroyed in the overall thought of the clause or sentence. @ Hester: Which is also one of the reasons I mentioned (a bit upthread) that Lutheran does not equal having to believe in every daggoned thing that Luther wrote. Pushing Calvin on a hurting individual is like pushing steak on an infant. The Calvinistas have just put a new spin on how to usurp Gods authority (the Holy Spirit) over the individual believer. I get where you are coming from within your paradigm. I inferred, from the context in which you placed it, that by child you meant someone innocent of knowledge, using the examples you gave as metaphors, since, of course, Jesus didnt tell us to believe in those things. This is what some people have heard their entire life. Its really beyond my comprehension, so I dont think about it too much. I think it means that God is aware of every molecule (which He created, of course), and that none of them escapes His will. Having left my few years of Calvinism through a Lutheran rescue :), I cannot express the relief and renewal- or perhaps, first real taste- of the joy of my salvation. I honestly dont know.) At any rate, the point is that I agree with you (even though I disagree that TULIP is slanderous) that when we start elevating these doctrines to first tier issues, we are causing division within the body. Im not saying thats being done intentionally- that is why Im seeking to clarify what I (and others with similar beliefs) believe. This is as it should be, imo. Yet why do I still love Jesus, the Bible and read so many Christian authors? Ravi Zacharias 26. *If we disagree, let us disagree on what we see in Scripture, not on our own sense of right and wrong. Pray for him. I have read extensively within the Calvinist system by approved authors including Calvin, himself, Grudem, Sproul, Piper, etc. Or reformed, predestined, predestination, sovereignty,. There are some who would consider me non charitable. I met my husband when he wandered over to Park Street after he attended a service at Tremont Temple. I watched past the first 15 minutes to watch the whole thing, and the video host quotes Calvinists at many times (showing their quotes typed up on the screen), and some of the Cals he quoted do believe God is the author of evil. His Kingdom and Church were to be completely separate from civil governance. Again, this idea that humans had no will to act is not something that the WCF, RC Sproul, or any Calvinist I know believes. So if you say oh yes, bringing God glory is the sole reason for mankind without ever pushing back like you did, elastigirl, their tacit assumption is that you have just conceded the soundness of their doctrine. I think it is sad that the PC(USA) rejected the song because of a line that is part of their doctrinal heritage. I will pray for him a lot in the coming days! And on occasion theyll even claim to love you, and to be rebuking you for your own good in order to bring you back to a more Biblical perspective. I have not had that experience. I never minded using it in the past because it was just a shorthand for my views on what it means to be saved by grace; I wasnt really arguing with anyone, and I figured as shorthand, it was alright. As you can imagine, though, I am still reeling from the Aug. 4 diagnosis. CALVIN! So if you disagree with me, you must be doomed to hell as a heretic, since you contradict what God has put in my mind to say.. If you think I should be silent whenever I see Calvinism misrepresnted, then that isnt right. The Calvinist thought process is: God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. A group, rightly or wrongly, is defined by the fruit that we see (often the problem with Christianity in general, right?). @ dee: It helped me to understand that both sides of this argument believe that their point of view is logical. When two sides have good arguments, it leads me to believe that there is a third or different way that encompasses both. God forbid. This would definitely color their opinion. of one. I have read at his site just a little bit and so far have found many of his thoughts very satisfying on all levels. (though in truth, I probably still get to read most of your comments from my lurking place, even though I rarely get to comment anymore). Here is my retort to everything you both said. Breathes words of consolation deep inside you. However, I have repeatedly heard calvinists call other believers heretics and blasphemers because they disagree with a pillar of calvinism (eg, they have a different definition of Gods sovereignity, or they believe Christ died for the sins of all). But whatever I believe about the sovereignty of God, it is MORE important to me to believe that God does not author evil and he does not desire for those he loves to suffer. @ Daisy: . every denomination that isn't explicitly Calvinist: all of them except Presbyterians and Reformed every denomination that is explicitly non-Calvinist: Methodists, Pentecostals, Adventists, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox Prof_Acorn 2 yr. ago Any small error can lead us on to some very large mistakes if we arent careful. That is what Jesus spoke against over and over in his short life. The assuredness of the approach is arrogant. Recent Arminians include Charles Finney, Dwight Moody, Billy Graham, Rick Warren and most other "mainline" preachers and evangelists. Yet not one of them will read Is God to Blame by Greg Boyd, let alone sit and discuss the verses in question (Exploring what Gods sovereignity really means, based on scripture). Did you notice that I used the word "non-Calvinist" as opposed to Arminian? I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that you dont want Calvinists to be completely honest about what they believe in the current discussion, because someone may be hurt. At first, I thought I had missed something in my Christian walk. Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by bjonson, Jan 10, 2006. http://www.biblebelievers.net/Calvinism/kjcalvn1.htm, http://www.thebereancall.org/Search_Search.aspx?SectionID=1359&search=calvin, http://www.geocities.com/calvinismheresy/calvinismmain.html, http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/heresies_of_calvinism.htm, http://www.swrb.ab.ca/newslett/actualNLs/RHNarmin.htm. Both my husband and I knew the difference at this point and began to look for another church in Dallas which we found in Bent Tree Bible Church. Im sorry about the experiences youve had with Calvinists. I DO struggle that when a woman is raped, that God chose not to prevent it. How one can be labeled an Arminian after a decade and a half as an SGM bobblehead is beyond me. @ Jeff S: I understand, and realize that you *do* wrestle with this as do we all, to a greater or lesser degree. Ultimately I think TULIP is the science behind how salvation operates, and knowing that should breed thankfulness and humility in me. I also want to learn to be a bit more like Olson, showing kindness in the midst of disagreement. And if we go to ourselves, were going to get something like what elastigirl wrote above. Im very glad that I can call you a sister in our Lord and a friend.. I view myself as rescued by God and dependent on his grace. ++++++++++++++++. Nope. But I respect that he does what he does for the same reason I do: we believe that people are at stake, and suffering is the penalty for losing the debate. I tend to doubt it but who knows. Jeff S, you said this: If you think I should be silent whenever I see Calvinism misrepresnted, then that isnt right.. Olsen is one of the writers who sees two "loose coalitions" developing in evangelical theology. I disagree on some points with everyone I respect. Anyway, as far as it depends on me, I really do want to be peaceful and avoid even the appearance of allegiance to anyone other than Christ Jesus, my Lord and Savior. Of course Calvinism is not the only theological construct that has been used to hurt people. He followed what was Augustinianism, which was the soteriological understanding of the church historically - all the way back to the apostles themselves. If I am doing good by sowing good wheat kernels and not tares, why would the Almighty want to stop me? Okay, that makes it a little less OCD. As far as truth is concerned, I believe that it reflects what the Bible says is the result of Adams sin. Lots of the Calvinists I have come across on the internet the past 13 15 years think you have to have advanced college degrees, spend ten years in school, be fluent in Hebrew and Koine Greek, have an exhaustive knowledge of the patristic writings, etc., to not only truly grasp Calvinism, but in their eyes, to be permitted to even begin to criticize it. We are glad that you do. Unless I either stop believing what I think is true or shut up about it, it seems I will forever put in a box of this nonsense, unloving idea that God is the author of evil and we are mindless automatons. If they use their beliefs to beat people over the head, they are obviously jerks. . I dont know that any of the venues get one closer to God than the others. Best Overall non calvinist systematic theology: This non calvinist systematic theology is the king of the hill. I, for one, *do* understand. We didn't worry so much about exacting doctrine. Well see how well I execute on that. And heres something I realized: I HATE the word Calvinist. The same dynamic that caused Charles Darwin to say I am not a Darwinist and Karl Marx to say I am not a Marxist? I am not saying that Calvinists are going to hell or anything radical like that. No one is trying to convince him otherwise. I dont even think PSA is limited to Calvinists- Lutherans believe it too, right? These leaders are not MY leader, and they are not the leaders of the men and women at my church. There are days I really have to remind myself that God still very much loves people who have little love or respect for me or other Arminian Christians. Matthew Pinson Michael Brown Michael Heiser Mildred Bangs Wynkoop Miner Raymond N Nathan Bangs Norman Geisler [footnote]Geisler refers to himself as a Calvinist but his works reflect a more non-Calvinist view of soteriology [/footnote] O P Paige Patterson Philip H. Towner Q R Randolph S. Foster Ravi Zacharias Richard Lenski Richard Watson So, when some folksfinally get into a Calvinist church that teaches sound doctrine, they believe that they have found a system that has answers for many questions that had troubled them. Some, myself included, who spent years in controlling and abusive churches would say that to be infantilised is the last thing we need. 3:1-2) is saying that their are parts of the Word that are more elementary than others, not that those parts are any less important. ), The best treatment of this question Ive read is by John Piper, so Im not sure youd want to read it. LOVE, this comment at a whole, Muff. That Cals portray Cal in so many ways, even on the same points, adds another layer of confusion to the conversation for me. Ryrie, Rice, Wesley, WE Vine, Geisler, and RA Torrey come to mind as non-calvinists who I personally find thoughtful, sound theologians who happen to disagree with me on this very fine issue of theology. Meyer 17. We often find it difficult to tolerate uncertainty, so we do anything to avoid that. Lin wrote: who needs systems & neat little boxes? Im so glad that God rescued me from my foray into Calvinism a couple of years ago. Because the complementarian doctrine is Gods will. @ Steve D: In what way it is wrong needs to be determined. I have found peace in accepting that I will not fully understand in this life, and maybe not even in the life to come. One more point- there have been those on this board who have argued before (in fact, I think Dee was one) that there is a difference between God causing something and God allowing something.